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Mariamne bat Aristobulus--Reader Comments
Mariamne bat Aristobulus was the granddaughter of Herod the Great by his Hasmonean son Aristobulus IV (aka Aristobulus ben Herod). I present the theory in Herodian Messiah that she was later known as Mary Magdalene. Out of the many theories contained therein, this one probably has the least factual support and I hope this was made clear in the book. It's hard to keep track of the Herodians without a chart. Here is one of my own making that may help. These are the three best-known Herodian Mariamne's. Our interest in this case is on the third Mariamne.
- Mariamne bat Alexander. Herod's Hasmonean queen, who he executed after she bore him four children.
- Mariamne bat Boethus. Third wife of Herod who was daughter of the high priest Simon Boethus.
- Mariamne bat Aristobulus. Hasmonean granddaughter of Herod who successively married Crown Prince Antipater (her uncle) and Herod Archelaus (another uncle). She was the older sister of the famous Herodias, wife of Herod Antipas.
- From: Robert
State of residence: Not Given
Subject: Trail to Mariamne III
Date: 1-9-2012
Comment: Needless to say, I am intrigued by your book "Herodian Messiah". It is obvious that you have put in a great deal of time, thought, and research into its making. I was led to it while undertaking my family genealogy. It wasn't even clear to me who Mariamne III might be,until your book came up on the internet. Now that this may be a possibility, I am not sure if what I already have leading up to her is correct, or just an error by a number of fellow genealogy enthusiasts.
According to what I have, Mariamne Caecina Arria Sabinus is her daughter, and the father is listed as Marcus Titus Flavius Sabinus. Is there a possibility that he was one of her husbands? I would appreciate any clarity on the matter.
As an ex-Catholic, it is refreshing to finally read something that contests what I was made to believe while growing up. There were always stories that seemed totally unbelievable at the time. Your book has offered another view that seems logical, and best of all, realistic. Thank you.
- From: JJR
State of residence: USA
Subject: Mariamne III
Date: 1-9-2012
Comment: Thanks for the comment Robert. Perhaps you have Hasmonean ancestry. Very interesting. I am not fond of using Roman numerals to identify the Herodians as, especially with the Hasmoneans within the Herodian clan, they use certain names repetitively leading to confusion. I think there is some confusion on your part with regard to the identity of Mariamne III. I did a quick search for the name "Marcus Titus Flavius Sabinus" and found this genealogy site, which says "Marcus Titus Flavius SABINUS was born in 30 AD in Rome, Italy, and died in 84 AD. He married Mariamne ARRIA, daughter of ARISTOBULUS I and BERENICE I. She was born in Judea, Israel, and died in 43 AD." There are a couple of problems with that line of text.
"Aristobulus I" is generally regarded to be Hasmonean king Judah Aristobulus I, who died in 103 BCE. The next Aristobulus was another Hasmonean king, Judah Aristobulus II who died in 63 BCE. Aristobulus III was Herod's brother-in-law who became high priest but was assassinated by Herod shortly thereafter in 36 BCE. The father of the woman I suggest as Mary Magdalene (Mariamne bat Aristobulus) was also know as Aristobulus IV and he died in 7 BCE. His wife was in fact named Bernice but there are problems with identifying these individuals as the parents of your Mariamne Arria. I date Mariamne bat Aristobulus' birth to around 16 BCE, so your Mariamne Arria who died in 43 CE, if the same person, would have been 58 years of age at death. That's reasonable but here is the part that does not fit: Marcus Titus Flavius Sabinus supposedly was born in 30 CE. If Mariamne Arria was in fact Mariamne bat Aristobulus, then she was 45 years older than her purported Roman husband, Marcus. Seems rather odd even by Roman standards. Even odder, Marcus was only 13 years of age when his purported wife died in 43 CE. Something is wrong here. It looks like your Mariamne Arria belongs to a later generation and died at a very young age when betrothed as a child / teenager to Marcus. Other options are that her date of death listed in the genealogy is wrong or Marcus' listed date of birth is wrong. On the face of it, the child bride scenario is only one that fits the facts given. There were Herodians named Aristobulus after Aristobulus IV. He had a son named Aristobulus, who never held official position in Roman Empire although all his other siblings did. I suspect he was also known as the biblical Lazarus. Aristobulus IV also had a grandson named Aristobulus who later became the king of Chalcis.
I think you have more detective work to do Robert. Good luck. I notice "Clemens" among the family names for the ancestry of your Marcus of Rome. If you have any family history connecting his family members with Clement of Rome (i.e., the third bishop of Rome), I would be interested in seeing it. I have read the suggestion that Clement was a Flavian and your ancestry for Marcus shows him to be a Flavian (looks like a descendant of two emperors, Vespasian and Titus). Very august! If you don't mind the suggestion, posting a short review of Herodian Messiah at Amazon's website (a few words are sufficient) would be helpful. Thanks.
- From: JJR
State of residence: USA
Subject: Mariamne III--oops
Date: 1-11-2012
Comment: Just noticed something I missed in your initial post. Your information is that Mariamne Arria was the daughter of Mariamne III (aka Mariamne bat Aristobulus). I have often speculated whether Mariamne bat Aristobulus had a child by Herod Archelaus prior to their divorce in 6 CE. She would have been around 21 years of age at that time and married to Archelaus since childhood. It seems logical that she would have had a child but none is recorded by Josephus. Still, even a date of birth of 6 CE for a daughter by Mariamne III is too old to have been the wife of your Marcus who was born in 30 CE (i.e., 24 year difference). If your Mariamne Arria is in fact a Hasmonean (keeping in mind that Mariamne is a common Jewish name), there are many possibilities to work through among the Hasmonean-Herodians. BTW, I forgot to mention that Aristobulus of Chalcis married Salome bat Herod Boethus, i.e., the daughter of Herodias who is thought to have performed the seductive dance at the birthday party for Herod Antipas that supposedly resulted in the beheading of John the Baptist. "Salome" also unexpectedly appears as a person at the cross and tomb of Jesus in Mark's gospel. Is this the same Salome? Maybe. Hard to say.
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