Comments Upon
Pantera Father of Jesus?

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• Name: Paul
  Date: Tuesday, December 07, 2010, 13:16:10
  Comment: You say "Why wasn't he executed by the Sanhedrin? The only potential solution comes from the case of Paul of Tarsus who could not be executed by the Sanhedrin due to his Roman citizenship.' Couldn't it simply have been that the Sanhedrin feared the people? If you fear how the people will react what better course is there than to let someone else do your dirty work.

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• Name: jjray
  Date: Tuesday, December 07, 2010, 16:55:12
  Comment: Is "couldn't it" the right question? Many scenarios are theoretically possible. The issue is to find the most probable. I have proposed that the Sanhedrin did not execute Jesus because he possessed Roman citizenship, as was the case with Paul of Tarsus. You suggest fear of the Jewish people prompted the Sanhedrin to shift the custody of Jesus over to the Romans in the hope that they would execute him.
  
  Couple of points. First, the Jews didn't control the Romans (the relationship worked the other way around). There was no guaranty the Romans would in fact execute Jesus. The gospel narrative tells us Pilate struggled with the decision and at one point proclaimed Jesus innocent. If the chief priests and other leaders on the Sanhedrin wanted Jesus dead, the only sure way to accomplish the task was to do the deed themselves. Secondly, the Jewish crowd evidently wasn't rabidly pro-Jesus at the time he was turned over to Pilate. You will recall that, if the biblical account is to be believed, the crowd asked for the release of Barabbas over Jesus. Lastly, the Sanhedrin had no trouble executing followers of Jesus in later years (see Stephen and his brother James the Just). It's not a black and white issue as room for debate certainly exists.

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• Name: Paul
  Date: Tuesday, December 07, 2010, 22:25:53
  Comment: Thank-you for your response. I would agree that there is room for debate. But the point of my question was that you said yours was the "ONLY potential solution" so I suggested an alternative that is consistent with the gospel accounts and is, I believe, more probable. The "fear of the people" that influenced the Jewish leaders is mentioned at least twice in Luke that I can think of.
  
  Yes the Jews didn't control the Romans, but the 1st century Palestine was a difficult place to govern for an occupying power and was a powder keg waiting to blow at the time. The last thing Pilate wanted was another revolt on his hands. All this could have made him open to manipulation.You say going by the Biblical account the crowd wasn't rabidly pro-Jesus at the time. I am not really sure I can agree with that. Certainly on the palm Sunday they were generally pro Jesus (I think using strong adjectives like "rabidly" may not help the discussion as it is difficult to assess). At some point it changed. I suspect at some point during the trial. This could possibly be due to paid plants in the crowd and a disenchantment with why the Messiah would allow the Romans to treat him this way.

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• Name: jjray
  Date: Wednesday, December 08, 2010, 13:26:16
  Comment: Hey Paul, I wrote an entire book on the subject so I'm not real keen on debating the issue within a thread on Pantera. It's fine that you don't agree with me.

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• Name: Paul
  Date: Wednesday, December 08, 2010, 14:22:28
  Comment: I am not really debating any point of disagreement between us. I was merely pointing out a statement in your original post which is rather an over-statement. You said that Jesus having Roman citizenship is the "ONLY potential solution". Then in your first response you say that "many scenarios are theoretically possible". Those two statements cannot both be true.

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• Name: jjray
  Date: Wednesday, December 08, 2010, 15:04:56
  Comment: No problem, I can delete your multiple posts. Getting excited over the word "only" ey? No problem. I'm not wedded to the word. For me, the proposed theory is the only logical solution to the problem. For you, not so.

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• Name: Paul
  Date: Wednesday, December 08, 2010, 23:09:06
  Comment: Lol. not really excited :) Two more problems with your position is that the Sanhedrin could no longer issue the death penalty after 30 CE (see John 18:31), and Roman citizens could not be subject to crucifixion. Anyway best wishes to you.

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• Name: jjray
  Date: Thursday, December 09, 2010, 15:48:09
  Comment:
  >>Sanhedrin could no longer issue the death penalty after 30 CE (see John 18:31)<<
  
  Fallacy. The Sanhedrin could and did. See Stephen and James the Just as but two examples (both post 30 CE). See works of Jewish scholars on this subject admitting to same.
  
  >>Roman citizens could not be subject to crucifixion.<<
  
  True. Issue discussed on pages 120-123 of Herodian Messiah. The issue was also raised in comments elsewhere on site in 2005 by Jan Van Puffelen.
  
  There was the great Sanhedrin (in Jersuralem) and other lesser tribunals also called Sanhedrin scattered throughout the Jewish kingdom and in any land where the Jews were allowed to govern themselves by their own law, such as Babylon. Sanhedrin 41a comes from the version of the Talmud created in Babylon, not Judea. The Talmud (i.e., interpretations of Jewish law) differed between the rabbis of Babylon and Judea. See footnote 45 from this online version of Sanhedrin 41a. "That these, like capital charges, could be tried only in the chief seat of the Sanhedrin — the Hall of Hewn Stones! These cases could, in fact, be tried anywhere in Palestine." (i.e., the capital cases could not be tried in Babylon but only in Judea). link.
  
  The case of Stephen's execution by the Sanhedrin is very specific in . It's not a mob. Acts places the execution after the crucifixion of Jesus. Stephen was brought "before the Council". Acts 6:12. The high priest questioned Stephen. Acts 7:1. The prisoner is given an opportunity to give a speech before the council. Then they stoned him to death. Paul is identified in Acts as present.
  
  Paul of Tarsus says he cast his vote to execute Nazarenes before switching sides to the Jesus party. Only in the Sanhedrin did Jews cast votes to kill other Jews. Notice that Paul uses plural when he talks about voting to execute Nazarenes.
  
  "Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.” Acts, 26:9-11.
  
  Josephus is very specific about the case of James the Just being executed by the Sanhedrin, convened that day by the high priest. "[Ananus] assembled the judges and brought before them the brothers of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned." Josephus, Antiquities XX 9:1 (200).

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• Name: KATHY LORRAIN OGLE
  Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012
  Comment: MY GRANDMOTHER WAS ELIZABETH JOACHIM PETER JOACHIMS DAUGHTER. HIS FATHER IN SCHLESWIG HOLSTEIN GERMANY 1597 WAS MARRIED TO ANNA CATHERINA KLOPPMAN. HIS NAME WAS HANS JOACHIM. ALSO MY GRANDFATHER SIX GENERATIONS BACK IS BURIED WITH GEORGE YOAKUM AND HIS BROTHER JESSE YOAKUM IN SULLIVAN, CO. MO. THEIR DESCENDENT CAN BE TRACED BACK TO HEINRICH JOACHIM IN GERMANY MARRIED TO A GERTRUDE. MATHIAS, VALENTINE FELTY, JESSE JOACHIM COMES FROM THIS LINEAGE. MY JOACHIMS BROTHER PETERS JOACHIMS BROTHER WAS NAMED MOSES JOACHIM.
  
  THE LINEAGE OF JESUS CAN BE TRACED THRU THE TREE OF JESSE AND ALL THE STAIN GLASS WINDOWS ALL OVER THE WORLD. MY NAME MEANS KATHY PERTAINING TO THE CROSS. CATHCARS CROSS CARRIERS KNIGHTS TEMPLARS. OGLE WILLIAM THE CONQUEROR GAVE LAND TO THE OGLES. TO LOOK OR GAZE OR SEE. MY PARENTS NAMED ME TO LOOK OR GAZE AT THE CROSS OF LORRAIN 8162882799
  
  HUGH MONTGOMERY IS MY DESCENDANT AND SO IS ARMSTRONGS AND LAMBERTS OF FOUR FRENCH DESCENDANTS. MY NAME MEANS TO LOOK OR GAZE AT THE CROSS OF LORRAIN 8162882799 ALL THE STAIN GLASS MOSAIC WINDOWS ALL OVER THE WORLD TELLS THE STORY OF JESUS LINEAGE

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• Name: jjray
  Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2012
  Comment: Kathy, FYI, don't make future posts on my website in all caps. I'll delete same. Caps are the equivalent of yelling in internet speak. There is no need to shout.

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